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That's one of the major reasons we're sticking with the ASR920 in metro
deployments for all it's faults. They do silly license stuff on the 12SZ
(no bulk, make all the 10G ports work license) but once you figure out
their quirks they do work quite well.

We did just receive a 9901 (purchased 6 months ago). It seems nice but
again, licensing. Want to put more than 120G worth of optics, add a
license. And reboot. Really, reboot? That just seems silly in this day
and age.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 12:32 PM Mark Tinka via cisco-nsp <
cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/23/23 19:20, Brian Turnbow wrote:
> > They also seem to want to follow the same route in metro with the
> NCS540s and this global bandwidth licensing bucket.
> > You want to turn up 2x100 and 24*10 on a box?
> > Buy 44 "essential right to use v1 for 10g" and all the shabangs that
> come with it that renew every 3 years...
> > Not so low cost anymore.
> > They sold/sell warehouses full of MEs/asr920s to providers yet seem to
> want to alienate the market ...
> >
> > A shame
>
> Apart from IOS XR being such a fat OS for us in the Metro, it's one of
> the many reasons we rejected their offer to swap out the ASR920 with the
> NCS540.
>
> Cisco have lost the plot, IMHO. Every solution at every level of the
> network is now a bulldozer searching for a tiny nail to hammer.
>
> Mark.
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On 2/23/23 21:34, Phil Bedard wrote:

> The original question was around an Internet border router with 10G
> support.   We have devices like the 55A2-MOD-SE which is similar to
> some other vendor devices (somewhat of a reference Broadcom design)
> which we’ve seen be very popular in border router deployments where
> you do not need a ton of bandwidth.
>

I think the OP came back to clarify that they need a 100Gbps-based router.


> XRd runs in a container with very little memory, it doesn’t always
> have to be “fat”.   In fact some of the smaller 540 systems have very
> little RP memory.
>

Not so much the memory footprint of the OS, but really, it's rather
verbose architecture for high-touch areas like the Metro, for which the
NCS540 was to replace the ASR920.

Mark.
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On 2/23/23 21:45, Shawn L via cisco-nsp wrote:

> That's one of the major reasons we're sticking with the ASR920 in metro
> deployments for all it's faults. They do silly license stuff on the 12SZ
> (no bulk, make all the 10G ports work license) but once you figure out
> their quirks they do work quite well.
>
> We did just receive a 9901 (purchased 6 months ago). It seems nice but
> again, licensing. Want to put more than 120G worth of optics, add a
> license. And reboot. Really, reboot? That just seems silly in this day
> and age.

Exactly - the Metro will usually see 100's - 1000's of devices. IOS XE
is nice and simple for such applications. In fact, Junos too.

For IOS XR, it's just too heavy for that sort of thing. Okay in the data
centre where we are aggregating a ton of customers and/or Metro-E rings,
but not out in the Metro. The Metro calls for a more agile OS. There are
simply way too many devices to be dealing with the issue you mention,
updating SMU's, rebooting, e.t.c., just to get a functionality and/or a
bug fix from IOS XR.

Mark.
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On 23/02/2023 19:32, Mark Tinka via cisco-nsp wrote:

> Cisco have lost the plot, IMHO. Every solution at every level of the
> network is now a bulldozer searching for a tiny nail to hammer.
>
> Mark.

So well said.

-Hank
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Hi,

On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 05:00:52AM +0200, Mark Tinka via cisco-nsp wrote:
> For IOS XR, it's just too heavy for that sort of thing. Okay in the data
> centre where we are aggregating a ton of customers and/or Metro-E rings,
> but not out in the Metro. The Metro calls for a more agile OS. There are
> simply way too many devices to be dealing with the issue you mention,
> updating SMU's, rebooting, e.t.c., just to get a functionality and/or a
> bug fix from IOS XR.

I really do like XR, but the update hassles... so having an "image based"
XR ("scp $new_xr.bin router:", "boot system flash $new_xr.bin", "reload")
would have been really nice.

Now, SMUs and "restart only the affected service" is a great promise, but
in all our time with the ASR9001, all we've seen is "reboot required"
or "the SMU is not compatible with using service packs". So, "just upload
a new image, and then reload" would have had the same effect, with less
argueing with the box.

Not sure XR64 is better in that regard, no experience - we lost trust in
Cisco before the question of "successor to the 9001? something with XR64?"
arose.

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany gert@greenie.muc.de

On 2/24/23 11:01, Gert Doering wrote:

> I really do like XR, but the update hassles... so having an "image based"
> XR ("scp $new_xr.bin router:", "boot system flash $new_xr.bin", "reload")
> would have been really nice.
>
> Now, SMUs and "restart only the affected service" is a great promise, but
> in all our time with the ASR9001, all we've seen is "reboot required"
> or "the SMU is not compatible with using service packs". So, "just upload
> a new image, and then reload" would have had the same effect, with less
> argueing with the box.

This.

Which I don't mind in the data centre, because it's a few boxes looking
after tons of traffic.

But in the Metro, where you have 100's - 1000's of boxes, this gets very
painful, very quickly. That and RPL, despite its flexibility, can get
rather rowdy in high-touch scenarios like the Metro.

Copy, save, reboot, is very attractive.

This is why we rejected the NCS540.


> Not sure XR64 is better in that regard, no experience - we lost trust in
> Cisco before the question of "successor to the 9001? something with XR64?"
> arose.

We stopped keeping track.

Mark.
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https://apps.juniper.net/home/port-checker/index.html

nice website to check port mix capabilities.

-Aaron

On 2/22/2023 5:06 PM, Thomas Scott via cisco-nsp wrote:
> Yes - 400 Gbps throughput total If I recall correctly.
>
>> The MX204 has four rate-selectable ports that can be configured as
> 100-Gigabit Ethernet ports or 40-Gigabit Ethernet ports, or each port can
> be configured as four 10-Gigabit Ethernet ports (by using a breakout
> cable). The MX204 also has eight 10-Gigabit Ethernet ports. The four
> rate-selectable ports support QSFP28 and QSFP+ transceivers, whereas the
> eight 10-Gigabit Ethernet ports support SFP+ transceivers
>
> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/hardware/mx204/topics/concept/mx204-description.html
>
> Best Regards,
> -Thomas Scott
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 5:19 PM Eric Louie via cisco-nsp <
> cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net> wrote:
>
>> Oh geez, I just realized I left a zero off the interface - we need 100G
>> interfaces both upstream (x1) and downstream (x2)
>> That probably changes the product choices a little bit.
>> Anyone with 100G Internet feeds want to let me know what you're using for
>> a border router? I saw one reply for Arista already.
>> Does the MX204 have 100GE interfaces and throughput?
>> -e-
>>
>> Eric Louie
>> 619-743-5375 Cell/text
>> Stay in this moment, it's the only one you really have
>> Take the time to be compassionate today
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 12:43:52 PM PST, Mark Tinka
>> <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/22/23 20:29, Eric Louie wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mark, thanks. We were quoted a MX304 for the Internet edge from
>> Juniper. How has your experience been with it? are you 10G upstream and
>> downstream? Any IPS on the 10G connection?
>>
>> The MX304 is not worth the money, for as long as the MX204 exists.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We tried an NCS-5501 and it was a disaster, in a word. The 10G
>> interface, uRPF, source-based blackholing, and routing table depth with
>> Cisco is a limiting factor in their product line.
>>
>> Broadcom-based systems should always be looked at with one eye open,
>> i.e., test test test before you commit. This applies to any vendor, not
>> just Cisco.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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--
-Aaron

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Hello,


for the unititiated, how does the licensing on a mx204 look like for
different or combined use-cases like pure IP edge, mpls layer3 and layer2
VPNs, BNG functionality?

Thanks,
Lukas
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On 2/24/23 19:51, Lukas Tribus via cisco-nsp wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
> for the unititiated, how does the licensing on a mx204 look like for
> different or combined use-cases like pure IP edge, mpls layer3 and layer2
> VPNs, BNG functionality?

IIRC, BNG deployments support up to 1,000 concurrent subscribers by
default. Anything more requires a license that should be purchased and
activated on the router.

For all other non-BNG features, the license is honour-based, and may get
enforced during a TAC call.

Mark.
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Ok well there are a number those as well. The 55A2 and newer 57C3 also support a number of 100G ports.

I quite don?t fully understand the ?verbose architecture? comment. I?ve used a lot of router operating systems, Junos since 1999, SROS, XR, XE, you name it, and there isn?t a whole lot of difference between them in terms of configuration complexity and operations. Obviously some just don?t have the feature set others do, but if you aren?t using the features then it doesn?t really matter.

There are at this point tens of thousands of NCS 540s deployed in that types of role, so I?m a bit curious if there was something specific in the config or other operations that was a show stopper issue?

Thanks,
Phil

From: Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 9:58 PM
To: Phil Bedard <philxor@gmail.com>, Brian Turnbow <b.turnbow@twt.it>, Gert Doering <gert@greenie.muc.de>
Cc: cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Internet border router recommendations and experiences

On 2/23/23 21:34, Phil Bedard wrote:
The original question was around an Internet border router with 10G support. We have devices like the 55A2-MOD-SE which is similar to some other vendor devices (somewhat of a reference Broadcom design) which we?ve seen be very popular in border router deployments where you do not need a ton of bandwidth.

I think the OP came back to clarify that they need a 100Gbps-based router.




XRd runs in a container with very little memory, it doesn?t always have to be ?fat?. In fact some of the smaller 540 systems have very little RP memory.

Not so much the memory footprint of the OS, but really, it's rather verbose architecture for high-touch areas like the Metro, for which the NCS540 was to replace the ASR920.

Mark.
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SMUs were a good idea, but not really great in practice. Most customers I work with do not want to manage application level patches, just entire images, even in cases where they are just a process restart.

XR for a number of years now has had the concept of a ?golden ISO?. It?s a single image either built by Cisco or customers can build their own that include the base software and the SMUs in a single image. You just issue a single ?install replace myiso.iso? and that?s it.

Thanks,
Phil

From: cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp-bounces@puck.nether.net> on behalf of Gert Doering via cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Date: Friday, February 24, 2023 at 4:02 AM
To: Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>
Cc: cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Internet border router recommendations and experiences
Hi,

On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 05:00:52AM +0200, Mark Tinka via cisco-nsp wrote:
> For IOS XR, it's just too heavy for that sort of thing. Okay in the data
> centre where we are aggregating a ton of customers and/or Metro-E rings,
> but not out in the Metro. The Metro calls for a more agile OS. There are
> simply way too many devices to be dealing with the issue you mention,
> updating SMU's, rebooting, e.t.c., just to get a functionality and/or a
> bug fix from IOS XR.

I really do like XR, but the update hassles... so having an "image based"
XR ("scp $new_xr.bin router:", "boot system flash $new_xr.bin", "reload")
would have been really nice.

Now, SMUs and "restart only the affected service" is a great promise, but
in all our time with the ASR9001, all we've seen is "reboot required"
or "the SMU is not compatible with using service packs". So, "just upload
a new image, and then reload" would have had the same effect, with less
argueing with the box.

Not sure XR64 is better in that regard, no experience - we lost trust in
Cisco before the question of "successor to the 9001? something with XR64?"
arose.

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany gert@greenie.muc.de
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On 2/26/23 16:21, Phil Bedard wrote:

> Ok well there are a number those as well. The 55A2 and newer 57C3 also
> support a number of 100G ports.
>
> I quite don’t fully understand the “verbose architecture” comment. 
> I’ve used a lot of router operating systems, Junos since 1999, SROS,
> XR, XE, you name it, and there isn’t a whole lot of difference between
> them in terms of configuration complexity and operations.  Obviously
> some just don’t have the feature set others do, but if you aren’t
> using the features then it doesn’t really matter.
>
> There are at this point tens of thousands of NCS 540s deployed in that
> types of role, so I’m a bit curious if there was something specific in
> the config or other operations that was a show stopper issue?
>

It's two things specifically for us - RPL construction in IOS XR can be
done in Junos for half the number of lines to achieve the same outcome,
without losing sophistication.

Secondly, maintaining IOS XR (upgrades and SMU's) is too tedious.

They may seem like trivial points, but for us, they mean a lot.

It's why we still prefer IOS XE (by way of the CSR1000v) as a route
reflector vs. Junos or IOS XR. IOS XE is far less verbose than the other
two, in that role.

Mark.
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On 2/26/23 16:29, Phil Bedard wrote:

> SMUs were a good idea, but not really great in practice.  Most
> customers I work with do not want to manage application level patches,
> just entire images, even in cases where they are just a process restart.
>
> XR for a number of years now has had the concept of a “golden ISO”. 
> It’s a single image either built by Cisco or customers can build their
> own that include the base software and the SMUs in a single image. 
> You just issue a single “install replace myiso.iso” and that’s it.
>

I did not know that. But then again, we haven't used IOS XR platforms in
a while, because we got put off.

Basically, Cisco got this wrong the first time, took advice on what
operators wanted to make it better, but fumbled still.

We moved on.

Mark.
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Hi,

On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 02:29:13PM +0000, Phil Bedard wrote:
> XR for a number of years now has had the concept of a ?golden ISO?. It?s a single image either built by Cisco or customers can build their own that include the base software and the SMUs in a single image. You just issue a single ?install replace myiso.iso? and that?s it.

And that takes how many hours to complete?

(But yes, that sounds like progress has been made in XR64 land)

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany gert@greenie.muc.de

The newer software is packaged that way already, if you don?t need SMUs. If you want to customize it with SMUs and whatnot it takes a few minutes, depends on your processor and storage speed of course.

Thanks,
Phil

On 2/26/23, 11:18 AM, "Gert Doering" <gert@greenie.muc.de> wrote:
Hi,

On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 02:29:13PM +0000, Phil Bedard wrote:
> XR for a number of years now has had the concept of a ?golden ISO?. It?s a single image either built by Cisco or customers can build their own that include the base software and the SMUs in a single image. You just issue a single ?install replace myiso.iso? and that?s it.

And that takes how many hours to complete?

(But yes, that sounds like progress has been made in XR64 land)

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany gert@greenie.muc.de<mailto:gert@greenie.muc.de>

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Hi,

On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 08:21:01PM +0000, Phil Bedard wrote:
> The newer software is packaged that way already, if you don?t need SMUs. If you want to customize it with SMUs and whatnot it takes a few minutes, depends on your processor and storage speed of course.

The question was not so much "how long does it create the iso" but
"how long will the platform take to do 'install replace myiso.iso'",
given the abysmal filesystem performance of IOS XR.

While I generally really like XR more than XE, the "copy one image
to flash, and then reload, pointing to that image" is just much
more convenient than "have the box extract the image into a full
filesystem, waiting for that to succeed, eternities later".

(The latter is also something JunOS on EX switches really *cough*
excels at, mounting flash read-write that should be read-only, and
destroying filesystems on power-outage reloads...)

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany gert@greenie.muc.de

Recent Juniper licensing model called "Flex software license" can be
found here:
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/software/license/juniper-licensing-admin-guide.pdf
Sorry for the link to huge pdf, but looks like Juniper now redirects all
my bookmarked pages to this document.
In short, there are three levels: standard, advanced and premium.
Standard has very low usability, advanced covers the most of use cases,
and premium adds some icing on the cake. Standard is included with
hardware, Advanced and Premium are available as perpetual or 1-3-5 years
time based. Time-based licenses include HW support, for perpetual
conventional NBD support has to be purchased. From my estimate,
time-based licenses are little less expensive on 5 years span, but on 8
years span perpetual gets better.
High performance devices and linecards can be licensed for partial
number of 100G or 400G ports and there is a minimum number for each
product that has to be licensed.
According to the document mentioned above, subscriber services need
separate licenses, although before I was told by Juniper that Premium
license covers everything, so this is new discovery for me. There are
packages for 4,8,16,32 and 64 thousand subscribers. They are not very
expensive compared to the price of hardware.

Hope this is helpful for OP.

Kind regards,
Andrey

Mark Tinka via cisco-nsp ?????(?) 2023-02-24 13:18:
> On 2/24/23 19:51, Lukas Tribus via cisco-nsp wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> for the unititiated, how does the licensing on a mx204 look like for
>> different or combined use-cases like pure IP edge, mpls layer3 and
>> layer2
>> VPNs, BNG functionality?
>
> IIRC, BNG deployments support up to 1,000 concurrent subscribers by
> default. Anything more requires a license that should be purchased and
> activated on the router.
>
> For all other non-BNG features, the license is honour-based, and may
> get enforced during a TAC call.
>
> Mark.
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/

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Phil et al, I goofed on the original email.  The Internet upstream is actually 100Gbps.  I'm at 10G right now and about 40% utilization download on this particular feed.
-e-

Eric Louie
619-743-5375 Cell/text
Stay in this moment, it's the only one you really have
Take the time to be compassionate today


On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 11:35:35 AM PST, Phil Bedard via cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net> wrote:

The original question was around an Internet border router with 10G support.  We have devices like the 55A2-MOD-SE which is similar to some other vendor devices (somewhat of a reference Broadcom design) which we’ve seen be very popular in border router deployments where you do not need a ton of bandwidth.

XRd runs in a container with very little memory, it doesn’t always have to be “fat”.  In fact some of the smaller 540 systems have very little RP memory.

Thanks,
Phil

From: cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp-bounces@puck.nether.net> on behalf of Mark Tinka via cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 12:32 PM
To: Brian Turnbow <b.turnbow@twt.it>, Gert Doering <gert@greenie.muc.de>
Cc: cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net <cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Internet border router recommendations and experiences


On 2/23/23 19:20, Brian Turnbow wrote:
> They also seem to want to follow the same route in metro with the NCS540s and this global bandwidth licensing bucket.
> You want to turn up 2x100 and 24*10 on a box?
> Buy 44 "essential right to use v1 for 10g" and all the shabangs that come with it that renew every 3 years...
> Not so low cost anymore.
> They sold/sell warehouses  full of MEs/asr920s to providers yet seem to want to alienate the market ...
>
> A shame

Apart from IOS XR being such a fat OS for us in the Metro, it's one of
the many reasons we rejected their offer to swap out the ASR920 with the
NCS540.

Cisco have lost the plot, IMHO. Every solution at every level of the
network is now a bulldozer searching for a tiny nail to hammer.

Mark.
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