Mailing List Archive

When will Catalyst reach 6.0?
Hi,

this is a rant about Catalyst’s version numbers.

The current scheme is a ridiculous, never-ending pain in the rear.
It’s been 5.900xx for 2 years, before that it was 5.800xx for over
2 years, following on 5.70xx for 2 years, following 5.6xx for only
about a year, to which it got from 3.00 in the span of a single year.

Even the maintainers can’t keep it straight! (There have repeatedly
been releases with too few fractional digits.)

It is my understanding that at some point in history – or several,
now that I look at the Changelog –, the version number got screwed
up, and since downstream distro packaging sanity requires never again
making the version number shorter as a string, it grew and grew and
grew… and the pace of version number increases slowed and slowed and
slowed.

Can’t this be fixed by bumping the major version to 6 and dumping
those two stupid extra zeroes? The Catamoose release would have
been a natural point at which to do this – alas.

But imagine if 5.8 had landed as 6.000. Then we’d’ve had

6.100 instead of 5.9000 (yes, only had 4 fractional digits)
6.200 instead of 5.90020 (now 5 frac’n digits…)
6.300 instead of 5.90030
6.400 instead of 5.90040
6.500 instead of 5.90050

Look at that: 6.100, 6.200, 6.300, 6.400, 6.500.

(I picked 1 digit minor version and 2 digits for point releases,
since that appears to be roughly how the sequence of releases so
far have played out. Coincidentally (except, if you think about
it, not so much) this is how I personally have come to version
all my stuff too.)

Isn’t that so much nicer to look at than 5.9000, 5.90020, 5.90030,
5.90040, 5.90050? It would also be so much easier to have a feel of
roughly how old any given version is, just by the version number.

But OK, it didn’t happen that way.

Note this would have ended up forcing a new major version in much
less time than the current scheme will, but if I look at the length
of the time frames, it would still take the better part of a decade.

That seems entirely reasonable.

Catalyst raced from 3.00 to 5.6 in only 10 months – then 8 years to
crawl up to 5.90051. That seems anything but reasonable. Worse, if
those two zeroes in there are made use of then it might *never* get
beyond 5.9 – and imagine *that* insanity. 5.90214? 5.92041? Hoo boy.

(Would it even be unreasonable to whirr up the major versions faster
than I have proposed here?)

How about doing a Linus and putting an end to version number madness
by simply declaring the next version to be a new major release? If we
didn’t have sanity so far, at least we can have it from here on out.

It’s never too late to fix an ongoing problem.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On 12/12/13 3:18 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:

>
> How about doing a Linus and putting an end to version number madness
> by simply declaring the next version to be a new major release? If we
> didn’t have sanity so far, at least we can have it from here on out.
>
> It’s never too late to fix an ongoing problem.

+1


--
Peter Karman . http://peknet.com/ . peter@peknet.com

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 09:13:40AM -0600, Peter Karman wrote:
>On 12/12/13 3:18 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> >How about doing a Linus and putting an end to version number madness
> >by simply declaring the next version to be a new major release? If we
> >didn’t have sanity so far, at least we can have it from here on out.
> >
> >It’s never too late to fix an ongoing problem.
>
> +1

I agree with changing version numbers, but I don't think we should only do
that, as the Linux kernel did. I think, in Catalyst's case, a new major
version number is a great opportunity to break back-compat with things that
cause problems (make the code base hard to understand, and almost nobody uses
them anyway). Things like M::, V:: and C:: namespaces, etc.


_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On 2013.12.12 7:32 AM, André Walker wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 09:13:40AM -0600, Peter Karman wrote:
>> On 12/12/13 3:18 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
>> >How about doing a Linus and putting an end to version number madness
>> >by simply declaring the next version to be a new major release? If we
>> >didn’t have sanity so far, at least we can have it from here on out.
>> >
>> >It’s never too late to fix an ongoing problem.
>>
>> +1
>
> I agree with changing version numbers, but I don't think we should only do
> that, as the Linux kernel did. I think, in Catalyst's case, a new major
> version number is a great opportunity to break back-compat with things that
> cause problems (make the code base hard to understand, and almost nobody uses
> them anyway). Things like M::, V:: and C:: namespaces, etc.

I recommend separating those things.

Release a 6.0 now that is backwards compatible with the last current version,
and is mostly just a renumbering.

Then later release either a 6.1 or a 7.0 or whatever as appropriate when you
have major or backwards-breaking changes.

See, if you put out a release that is a major change or breaks something, you
probably are going to have maintenance releases for the older version for awhile
as well, so if you switch to 6.0 first, then those maintenance releases can have
sane versions as well.

Also, then sane numbers are not held back until you have enough consensus to put
out backwards-breaking or otherwise major changes.

-- Darren Duncan


_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
* André Walker <andre@andrewalker.net> [2013-12-12 16:35]:
> I agree with changing version numbers, but I don't think we should
> only do that, as the Linux kernel did. I think, in Catalyst's case,
> a new major version number is a great opportunity to break back-compat
> with things that cause problems (make the code base hard to
> understand, and almost nobody uses them anyway). Things like M::, V::
> and C:: namespaces, etc.

That will just delay the version number change. A *lot*. In the meantime
we’ll continue living with crappy version numbers for no good reason.

I also don’t like breaking backcompat like this, on principle almost,
esp. on CPAN, where installing XYZ always means the highest version of
XYZ unless you fight the toolchain hard.

If you break backcompat then it should be done with a new name – not
necessarily a very different one, maybe just e.g. Catalyst2. If that
is decided, there is a *lot* of old stuff that could be thrown away.
The whole Catalyst::Engine getup dates from the pre-PSGI era. All of
the MethodMaker compat stuff that dates to the pre-Moose era. That
dispatcher outer loop. Context/app split. All of those would be much
easier to redo without old user code that must be kept working. Maybe
then the dependency list cut be pared back too. But the result should
not be called Catalyst.

And it would be unreasonable to make sane version numbers wait for it.

Even if you say only a few things should be removed, instead of a big
overhaul like this, it’ll still take longer than you think, and I don’t
know that it would even be worth the pain then.

No. Let’s just fix the version number.

With no attempt to make it mean anything.

It was good enough for Linux – it’s good enough for Catalyst. :-)

(This argument is pretty similar to the ones about timeboxed vs feature-
based releases. The thing is that by trying to make “thematic” releases
you hold up all the *other* improvements from getting to users until the
flagship features are done, which in the case of release schedules has
other bad results as people try various things to evade various effects
of the problem of improvements being held up – often at cross purposes,
making the whole situation worse. You really want to minimize the amount
of “we won’t give users a fix for X until the fix for Y is done”.)

--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
Hi,

Of all the things potentially need of fixing in Catalyst, its not clear to me that version numbering is one of them...

I know the system has changed around a bit and there's a claim that this is somehow causing trouble with downstream maintainers (I guess by this you people like Debian or Red Hat making *.deb / *.rpm).  Can someone point out to me a clear example of this, or a clear case where the current version system causes trouble?  By this I mean a use case, like some technical task that cannot be completed or where the workarounds are onerous and fragile.

Personally I would otherwise prefer not to get into a bike shedding discussion about what is the best version number for Catalyst, in the absence of such a use case.  I suspect the confusion caused would outweigh any gain that I can possible see.

Currently the process that I am using to introduce change into Catalyst involves one of three evaluations:

1) Its a bug that needs fixing or improvements to clarify the documentation.
2) Community consensus.
3) Technical Merit.

In all three cases I want to weigh the proposed change against the possible harm, such as the impact on back-compat or an increase in the dependency count, performance changes, memory requirements, etc.  Generally I want to see the value outweigh the harm and that steps are taken to provide workarounds or some type of mitigation (such as a clear deprecation cycle as we are doing with the Regexp dispatch support).

So all things being equal, I'll prefer to respect tradition and back-compat, even if doing so involves some hassles or pain for us.


I realize this leads to slower change than many people, including myself, want to see.  If you want to see Catalyst move faster I invite you to participate in nominating tasks and detailing them.  The current quest list for the proposed upcoming development cycle is here:

http://questhub.io/realm/perl/explore/latest/tag/runner


I am considering one or two more ideas, but I also have to plan for the current level of contribution.  I do not like to make plans and fail :)  The current contribution level suggests its smarter to focus on small, useful tasks that can be completed by one person in 4 to 20 hours of time.  This is the process I have followed for the previous year, and I think its resulted in strong, incremental improvements to Catalyst, including movement on some tasks that have been stuck for a number of years.  If you have followed this year's Catalyst Advent I would hope you'd feel the same way.

I do have some thoughts about ways we can manage back-compat while allowing us some greater ability to make deeper changes; They will be summarized in this year's final advent article, so I recommend following if you are not currently doing so:

http://www.catalystframework.org/calendar/


I don't want to make plans or promises that can't be kept, because it hurts our community.  For example, there was a huge effort put into projects like the port to using Bread Board, and several attempts at splitting $app/$ctx but that time ended up not bearing fruit and I personally felt bad because I know how much it sucks when you put your free time into something and it doesn't work out.  So I make a clear promise that if we set a goal we will achieve at least 85% of it, and by that I mean at least 85% successful changes introduced into a stable version of Catalyst on CPAN (not 85% a project completed but still stuck in a branch, which I consider effectively 0%).

Thanks!

John



On Friday, December 13, 2013 3:56 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:

* André Walker <andre@andrewalker.net> [2013-12-12 16:35]:
> I agree with changing version numbers, but I don't think we should
> only do that, as the Linux kernel did. I think, in Catalyst's case,
> a new major version number is a great opportunity to break back-compat
> with things that cause problems (make the code base hard to
> understand, and almost nobody uses them anyway). Things like M::, V::
> and C:: namespaces, etc.

That will just delay the version number change. A *lot*. In the meantime
we’ll continue living with crappy version numbers for no good reason.

I also don’t like breaking backcompat like this, on principle almost,
esp. on CPAN, where installing XYZ always means the highest version of
XYZ unless you fight the toolchain hard.

If you break backcompat then it should be done with a new name – not
necessarily a very different one, maybe just e.g. Catalyst2. If that
is decided, there is a *lot* of old stuff that could be thrown away.
The whole Catalyst::Engine getup dates from the pre-PSGI era. All of
the MethodMaker compat stuff that dates to the pre-Moose era. That
dispatcher outer loop. Context/app split. All of those would be much
easier to redo without old user code that must be kept working. Maybe
then the dependency list cut be pared back too. But the result should
not be called Catalyst.

And it would be unreasonable to make sane version numbers wait for it.

Even if you say only a few things should be removed, instead of a big
overhaul like this, it’ll still take longer than you think, and I don’t
know that it would even be worth the pain then.

No. Let’s just fix the version number.

With no attempt to make it mean anything.

It was good enough for Linux – it’s good enough for Catalyst. :-)

(This argument is pretty similar to the ones about timeboxed vs feature-
based releases. The thing is that by trying to make “thematic” releases
you hold up all the *other* improvements from getting to users until the
flagship features are done, which in the case of release schedules has
other bad results as people try various things to evade various effects
of the problem of improvements being held up – often at cross purposes,
making the whole situation worse. You really want to minimize the amount
of “we won’t give users a fix for X until the fix for Y is done”.)

--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>


_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
* John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com> [2013-12-14 21:35]:
> Of all the things potentially need of fixing in Catalyst, its not
> clear to me that version numbering is one of them...

In what sense is it even comparable to other things that need fixing?

Even if it was, I call shenanigans on that line of argument. “Given
cancer and world hunger, does it even make sense to worry about bugs
in Catalyst?” There is *always* something bigger to fix, so this line
of argument can be used to derail/torpedo *any* fix. So I consider it
meaningless.

> I know the system has changed around a bit and there's a claim that
> this is somehow causing trouble with downstream maintainers (I guess
> by this you people like Debian or Red Hat making *.deb / *.rpm).  Can
> someone point out to me a clear example of this, or a clear case where
> the current version system causes trouble?  By this I mean a use case,
> like some technical task that cannot be completed or where the
> workarounds are onerous and fragile.

The issue boils down to nobody agreeing on exactly how the fractional
parts of two version numbers are to compare. The only agreement that is
usefully close to universal is about the non-fractional part being
numerically comparable. Hence my proposal, bump the major version so the
fractional part can be fixed.

> Personally I would otherwise prefer not to get into a bike shedding
> discussion about what is the best version number for Catalyst, in the
> absence of such a use case. I suspect the confusion caused would
> outweigh any gain that I can possible see.

… confusion?

About what?

> Currently the process that I am using to introduce change into
> Catalyst involves one of three evaluations:
>
> 1) Its a bug that needs fixing or improvements to clarify the documentation.
> 2) Community consensus.
> 3) Technical Merit.

How is any of that even applicable when we’re talking about bumping the
version number which happens every single time Catalyst is released?

> In all three cases I want to weigh the proposed change against the
> possible harm, such as the impact on back-compat or an increase in the
> dependency count, performance changes, memory requirements, etc.

I can’t think of any reason this would break backcompat, but if anyone
else can, please explain. Other possible harm: dependency count: no
change. Performance changes: none. Memory requirements: identical. Etc.

> Generally I want to see the value outweigh the harm and that steps
> are taken to provide workarounds or some type of mitigation (such as
> a clear deprecation cycle as we are doing with the Regexp dispatch
> support).
>
> So all things being equal, I'll prefer to respect tradition and
> back-compat, even if doing so involves some hassles or pain for us.

If my impression that there is no harm here holds up, then the value of
this change can only possibly outweigh the (zero) harm.

> I realize this leads to slower change than many people, including
> myself, want to see. If you want to see Catalyst move faster I invite
> you to participate in nominating tasks and detailing them. The current
> quest list for the proposed upcoming development cycle is here:
>
> http://questhub.io/realm/perl/explore/latest/tag/runner
>
> I am considering one or two more ideas, but I also have to plan for
> the current level of contribution. I do not like to make plans and
> fail :) The current contribution level suggests its smarter to focus
> on small, useful tasks that can be completed by one person in 4 to 20
> hours of time. This is the process I have followed for the previous
> year, and I think its resulted in strong, incremental improvements to
> Catalyst, including movement on some tasks that have been stuck for
> a number of years.  If you have followed this year's Catalyst Advent
> I would hope you'd feel the same way.

I have no objections of any kind to any of this. It is a smart way to
cope with reality.

> I do have some thoughts about ways we can manage back-compat while
> allowing us some greater ability to make deeper changes; They will be
> summarized in this year's final advent article, so I recommend
> following if you are not currently doing so:
>
> http://www.catalystframework.org/calendar/
>
> I don't want to make plans or promises that can't be kept, because it
> hurts our community. For example, there was a huge effort put into
> projects like the port to using Bread Board, and several attempts at
> splitting $app/$ctx but that time ended up not bearing fruit and
> I personally felt bad because I know how much it sucks when you put
> your free time into something and it doesn't work out.  So I make
> a clear promise that if we set a goal we will achieve at least 85% of
> it, and by that I mean at least 85% successful changes introduced into
> a stable version of Catalyst on CPAN (not 85% a project completed but
> still stuck in a branch, which I consider effectively 0%).
>
> Thanks!

Does this mean that if I prepare a patch to bump the version number so
that you can simply apply it, you will take it?

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
Aristotle,

Sorry for top posting, I guess I gotta get off Yahoo Email because it just gets worse and worse.

Generally I haven't thought much about Catalyst versioning, since Perl versioning seems a black pit to me, easy to totally mess things up with all the changes over the time.  However I'd love someone to lay out a map for the rules we follow going forward.  Help me understand how once we are on Catalyst six, what would versioning look like (in terms of say the next year or so of changes).

Right now I'm going to stay under 5.900xx since the next two releases will continue with the theme of 'expose more placky goodness', which started with the migration to plack on version 5.9xxxxxx so it seems to be to make sense.  I was broadly discussing that 6.0 would be an opportunity to break with some of the past, and as long as there were good workaround we could introduce some deeper fixes and perhaps move the application code in a different direction.  If we did that my thinking is that Catalyst 5.9 would continue to see development and patches since some people may not want to make the leap.

Alternatively we could just to Catalyst 7 for the 'new code direction' and cut a Catalyst 6 from the 5.9 series.  that way would could fix whatever is perceived as problematic with versioning for both legacy and new Catalyst.

In terms of creating a new namespace (CatalysTNG or some such) I am not terribly in favor of that.  Other projects in other languages manage to move code forward, to deprecate and migrate such as to keep the system fresh and relevant.   I know Perl has not always managed it,  but I think it could do so, particularly with PSGI as a good way to integrate old code and new code in a relatively seamless manner.  Anyway, as I mentioned I'll close Catalyst Advent this year we thoughts on that and how it could succeed, but I also have pretty strong notions of all the bits that need to be in place for success to happen so I would not embark on a project I feel is likely to fail.  I'm nearly 45 years old and don't feel I have time to waste on projects that go nowhere :)

John



On Saturday, December 14, 2013 3:15 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:

* John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com> [2013-12-14 21:35]:
> Of all the things potentially need of fixing in Catalyst, its not
> clear to me that version numbering is one of them...

In what sense is it even comparable to other things that need fixing?

Even if it was, I call shenanigans on that line of argument. “Given
cancer and world hunger, does it even make sense to worry about bugs
in Catalyst?” There is *always* something bigger to fix, so this line
of argument can be used to derail/torpedo *any* fix. So I consider it
meaningless.

> I know the system has changed around a bit and there's a claim that
> this is somehow causing trouble with downstream maintainers (I guess
> by this you people like Debian or Red Hat making *.deb / *.rpm).  Can
> someone point out to me a clear example of this, or a clear case where
> the current version system causes trouble?  By this I mean a use case,
> like some technical task that cannot be completed or where the
> workarounds are onerous and fragile.

The issue boils down to nobody agreeing on exactly how the fractional
parts of two version numbers are to compare. The only agreement that is
usefully close to universal is about the non-fractional part being
numerically comparable. Hence my proposal, bump the major version so the
fractional part can be fixed.

> Personally I would otherwise prefer not to get into a bike shedding
> discussion about what is the best version number for Catalyst, in the
> absence of such a use case. I suspect the confusion caused would
> outweigh any gain that I can possible see.

… confusion?

About what?

> Currently the process that I am using to introduce change into
> Catalyst involves one of three evaluations:
>
> 1) Its a bug that needs fixing or improvements to clarify the documentation.
> 2) Community consensus.
> 3) Technical Merit.

How is any of that even applicable when we’re talking about bumping the
version number which happens every single time Catalyst is released?

> In all three cases I want to weigh the proposed change against the
> possible harm, such as the impact on back-compat or an increase in the
> dependency count, performance changes, memory requirements, etc.

I can’t think of any reason this would break backcompat, but if anyone
else can, please explain. Other possible harm: dependency count: no
change. Performance changes: none. Memory requirements: identical. Etc.

> Generally I want to see the value outweigh the harm and that steps
> are taken to provide workarounds or some type of mitigation (such as
> a clear deprecation cycle as we are doing with the Regexp dispatch
> support).
>
> So all things being equal, I'll prefer to respect tradition and
> back-compat, even if doing so involves some hassles or pain for us.

If my impression that there is no harm here holds up, then the value of
this change can only possibly outweigh the (zero) harm.

> I realize this leads to slower change than many people, including
> myself, want to see. If you want to see Catalyst move faster I invite
> you to participate in nominating tasks and detailing them. The current
> quest list for the proposed upcoming development cycle is here:
>
> http://questhub.io/realm/perl/explore/latest/tag/runner
>
> I am considering one or two more ideas, but I also have to plan for
> the current level of contribution. I do not like to make plans and
> fail :) The current contribution level suggests its smarter to focus
> on small, useful tasks that can be completed by one person in 4 to 20
> hours of time. This is the process I have followed for the previous
> year, and I think its resulted in strong, incremental improvements to
> Catalyst, including movement on some tasks that have been stuck for
> a number of years.  If you have followed this year's Catalyst Advent
> I would hope you'd feel the same way.

I have no objections of any kind to any of this. It is a smart way to
cope with reality.

> I do have some thoughts about ways we can manage back-compat while
> allowing us some greater ability to make deeper changes; They will be
> summarized in this year's final advent article, so I recommend
> following if you are not currently doing so:
>
> http://www.catalystframework.org/calendar/
>
> I don't want to make plans or promises that can't be kept, because it
> hurts our community. For example, there was a huge effort put into
> projects like the port to using Bread Board, and several attempts at
> splitting $app/$ctx but that time ended up not bearing fruit and
> I personally felt bad because I know how much it sucks when you put
> your free time into something and it doesn't work out.  So I make
> a clear promise that if we set a goal we will achieve at least 85% of
> it, and by that I mean at least 85% successful changes introduced into
> a stable version of Catalyst on CPAN (not 85% a project completed but
> still stuck in a branch, which I consider effectively 0%).
>
> Thanks!

Does this mean that if I prepare a patch to bump the version number so
that you can simply apply it, you will take it?

Regards,

--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On 2013.12.16 8:37 AM, John Napiorkowski wrote:
> Alternatively we could just to Catalyst 7 for the 'new code direction' and cut a
> Catalyst 6 from the 5.9 series. that way would could fix whatever is perceived
> as problematic with versioning for both legacy and new Catalyst.

That is exactly what I propose. Have Catalyst 6.0 be the version number for the
release that would otherwise be a 5.90xxxx and not have any other changes for
the sake of the version number. Then what to number subsequent releases is then
the only discussion point in that context, but 6.x would be for things that
would otherwise have been 5.90x, and later 7.x can be used when you have more
major changes. -- Darren Duncan


_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On Monday, December 16, 2013 7:58 PM, Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:

On 2013.12.16 8:37 AM, John Napiorkowski wrote:
> Alternatively we could just to Catalyst 7 for the 'new code direction' and cut a
> Catalyst 6 from the 5.9 series.  that way would could fix whatever is perceived
> as problematic with versioning for both legacy and new Catalyst.

That is exactly what I propose.  Have Catalyst 6.0 be the version number for the
release that would otherwise be a 5.90xxxx and not have any other changes for
the sake of the version number.  Then what to number subsequent releases is then
the only discussion point in that context, but 6.x would be for things that
would otherwise have been 5.90x, and later 7.x can be used when you have more
major changes. -- Darren Duncan


--
Ok, like I said, I'm open to it, if people feel strongly about it.  However I'd like to find out what it buys us.  Like, I'd imagine the next three stable releases of Catalyst would follow the trend existing, and go like this:

5.90060
5.90070
5.90080

What would we propose they be instead?  And how is it better (its been said the current system is broken in a way that cause trouble.)

john


_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
Hi John,

* John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com> [2013-12-17 03:15]:
> However I'd like to find out what it buys us. Like, I'd imagine the
> next three stable releases of Catalyst would follow the trend
> existing, and go like this:
>
> 5.90060
> 5.90070
> 5.90080
>
> What would we propose they be instead? And how is it better (its been
> said the current system is broken in a way that cause trouble.)

the current system isn’t *broken* per se. But it’s ugly. It’s not ugly
in a way that is very important, but it’s still ugly. I noticed that
I can never quite keep straight what was added in what version. All
those version numbers are identical to the 4th fractional digit. The
major weight visually is on the 5.9 part, and it’s been 5.9 forever now.

If you were involved in the work yourself, that may not even register as
a bother, since it’s much easier to keep track of fiddly details when
you have context for them due to immersion. For people further away from
the matter, though, with version numbers so sameish, it gets hard to not
see just a blur of indistinct 5.9somethings.

I’d propose the following:

5.90060 → 6.000
5.90061 → 6.001
5.90070 → 6.100
5.90071 → 6.101
5.90072 → 6.102
5.90080 → 6.200

Basically as far as users care it would become 6.0, 6.1, 6.2 etc. That
make these releases look like fairly separate versions at a glance,
rather than teeny tiny iterations on a huge 5.9 series. So it gets much
easier to remember what was added when.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
* Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2013-12-17 04:16]:
> 5.90060 → 6.000
^ ^

Hah, I never even noticed the parallelism. I’d say now is a great time
to do the bump. :-)

--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On 2013.12.16 7:16 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> I’d propose the following:
>
> 5.90060 → 6.000
> 5.90061 → 6.001
> 5.90070 → 6.100
> 5.90071 → 6.101
> 5.90072 → 6.102
> 5.90080 → 6.200

What a coincidence, I was going to recommend essentially the same thing.

My first major point is that we have never more than 3 figures to the right of
the decimal place, and I see Aristotle agrees.

Beyond that, increment the thousanths place for minor releases, and optionally
increment the tenths place after the decimal for semi-major changes.

Since we should be free to increment the wholes digit more readily, we probably
wouldn't need to have more than 1 digit, the tenths, for semi-majors, if at all.

Another key point is, because we can be more free to increment the wholes digit
without it having a special meaning, we can also be free to change any meaning
or pattern in the fractional digits each time we do that.

But I wholeheartedly support the exact proposal Aristotle gave above. And yes,
I saw the "6" shift just a coincidence.

-- Darren Duncan


_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
Ok, I see the path here.  There's going to be at least one more point release under the current since there's some outstanding bugs.  The only thing I'm of two minds about is if we wanted to use the 6 version to indicate a new code direction.  My guess is people might think when they see that, so communication would be important.  I also want to bounce it off one or two of the long term commiters (mst, t0m, rafl) before we commit to it.

Any chance someone can write up a quest hub ticket?   Its sorta a place I am using to try and make the roadmap more public.

John



On Monday, December 16, 2013 10:46 PM, Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:

On 2013.12.16 7:16 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> I’d propose the following:
>
>    5.90060  →  6.000
>    5.90061  →  6.001
>    5.90070  →  6.100
>    5.90071  →  6.101
>    5.90072  →  6.102
>    5.90080  →  6.200

What a coincidence, I was going to recommend essentially the same thing.

My first major point is that we have never more than 3 figures to the right of
the decimal place, and I see Aristotle agrees.

Beyond that, increment the thousanths place for minor releases, and optionally
increment the tenths place after the decimal for semi-major changes.

Since we should be free to increment the wholes digit more readily, we probably
wouldn't need to have more than 1 digit, the tenths, for semi-majors, if at all.

Another key point is, because we can be more free to increment the wholes digit
without it having a special meaning, we can also be free to change any meaning
or pattern in the fractional digits each time we do that.

But I wholeheartedly support the exact proposal Aristotle gave above.  And yes,
I saw the "6" shift just a coincidence.

-- Darren Duncan



_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
* John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com> [2013-12-17 16:55]:
> Any chance someone can write up a quest hub ticket? Its sorta
> a place I am using to try and make the roadmap more public.

I will if no one beats me to it. But it won’t be tonight.

--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On 2013.12.17 8:06 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com> [2013-12-17 16:55]:
>> Any chance someone can write up a quest hub ticket? Its sorta
>> a place I am using to try and make the roadmap more public.
>
> I will if no one beats me to it. But it won’t be tonight.

I will leave it to you. -- Darren Duncan



_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
* John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com> [2013-12-17 16:55]:
> Any chance someone can write up a quest hub ticket? Its sorta
> a place I am using to try and make the roadmap more public.

Here you go,
http://questhub.io/realm/perl/quest/52b352a2f6d32971490000e9

--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
* Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2013-12-12 10:20]:
> When will Catalyst reach 6.0?

So it’s been a year. We’re still in the same place, for no reason.

So I will answer myself: not in years, and who knows if ever.


* Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2013-12-13 11:00]:
> * André Walker <andre@andrewalker.net> [2013-12-12 16:35]:
> > I think, in Catalyst's case, a new major version number is a great
> > opportunity to break back-compat
>
> That will just delay the version number change. A *lot*. In the
> meantime we’ll continue living with crappy version numbers for no good
> reason.

Yeah, I would love to be right less often.


* Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> [2013-12-13 04:45]:
> I recommend separating those things.
>
> Release a 6.0 now that is backwards compatible with the last current
> version, and is mostly just a renumbering.
>
> Then later release either a 6.1 or a 7.0 or whatever as appropriate
> when you have major or backwards-breaking changes.

The sensible man on the thread; and of course, no one listened.


--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
On 2014-12-20 6:26 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> [2013-12-13 04:45]:
>> I recommend separating those things.
>>
>> Release a 6.0 now that is backwards compatible with the last current
>> version, and is mostly just a renumbering.
>>
>> Then later release either a 6.1 or a 7.0 or whatever as appropriate
>> when you have major or backwards-breaking changes.
>
> The sensible man on the thread; and of course, no one listened.

Thank you for your vote of confidence in the idea. -- Darren Duncan



_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
Re: When will Catalyst reach 6.0? [ In reply to ]
Hi,
I'd love to move Catalyst along as well.  If you want to help here's the current TODO list:
https://github.com/perl-catalyst/catalyst-runtime/issues?q=is%3Aopen

and the items on our current dev burn (dev003 on CPAN if you want to help test it)
https://github.com/perl-catalyst/catalyst-runtime/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3Aholland
Athough now that I look I think some of those are finished but its still not a bad list of the goals for the next stable release (shooting for Jan 28, in time for the 10th anniversary notice)
Although we didn't hit V6 in 2014 since last year we did:
15 stable releases (not just bug fixes, there's real new and useful features)10 development release
We also have 21 advent articles (feel free to add more, we still have open slots)
So it you think Catalyst isn't moving fast enough, I'd love to see you names on this chart:
https://github.com/perl-catalyst/catalyst-runtime/graphs/contributors?from=2013-12-20&to=2014-12-22&type=c

Bike shedding the version number is not a good use of time.   We'll hit 6 sometime in 2015 because either we find a way forward with something new and exciting, or I come to the conclusion I don't have enough developers helping out and we go with plan B which is a version 6 that is he same as we currently have minus some of the worst hacks (and probably try to complete the port to Moose project, which kinda stalled once it got just good enough to use.)
Best of luck,
jnap

On Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:46 PM, Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:


On 2014-12-20 6:26 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> [2013-12-13 04:45]:
>> I recommend separating those things.
>>
>> Release a 6.0 now that is backwards compatible with the last current
>> version, and is mostly just a renumbering.
>>
>> Then later release either a 6.1 or a 7.0 or whatever as appropriate
>> when you have major or backwards-breaking changes.
>
> The sensible man on the thread; and of course, no one listened.

Thank you for your vote of confidence in the idea. -- Darren Duncan



_______________________________________________
Catalyst-dev mailing list
Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev