Mailing List Archive

Hello Pavel,

I am Lucien Gentis from the french translation team.

As you can read it in this page :
http://httpd.apache.org/docs-project/translations.html , your
translations have to be reviewed by another russian speaking person
before it can be commited.

Rightly, a few months ago, someone has submitted to us the russian
translation of the file getting-started.xml, but he didn't have a
reviewer either.

So you both could constitute a russian translation team : if one has
done a translation, the other can review it, and vice versa.

If you're interested and if you agree, I can introduce you to him.

Best regards

Lucien

Le 05/10/2020 à 21:07, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :

> Hi, everyone.
>
> I would like to take part in the translation of the documentation into
> Russian.
> I attached my first contribution (index.xml.ru <http://index.xml.ru>)
> - is the main documentation page
> <https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/trunk/docs/manual/index.xml>.
>
> ~ If I am doing something wrong, please, give me advice.
>
> --
> Sincerely, Pavel.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docs-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docs-help@httpd.apache.org

Hi, Lucien.

I'm glad there is someone alive here. :)

Yes, thanks, I read this page. I think this rule makes sense to ensure
translation quality.

About the Russian translation team - it is a perfect idea! Thanks.

If you're interested and if you agree, I can introduce you to him.

Yes, I am interested. This will allow us to move on.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 3:14 PM Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>
wrote:

> Hello Pavel,
>
> I am Lucien Gentis from the french translation team.
>
> As you can read it in this page :
> http://httpd.apache.org/docs-project/translations.html , your
> translations have to be reviewed by another russian speaking person before
> it can be commited.
>
> Rightly, a few months ago, someone has submitted to us the russian
> translation of the file getting-started.xml, but he didn't have a reviewer
> either.
>
> So you both could constitute a russian translation team : if one has done
> a translation, the other can review it, and vice versa.
>
> If you're interested and if you agree, I can introduce you to him.
>
> Best regards
>
> Lucien
>
> Le 05/10/2020 à 21:07, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>
> Hi, everyone.
>
> I would like to take part in the translation of the documentation into
> Russian.
> I attached my first contribution (index.xml.ru) - is the main
> documentation page
> <https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/trunk/docs/manual/index.xml>
> .
>
> ~ If I am doing something wrong, please, give me advice.
>
> --
> Sincerely, Pavel.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docs-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docs-help@httpd.apache.org
>
>

--
Sincerely, Pavel.

Hi, Lucien.

I found an email address of the person who previously sent you a
translation and wrote to him himself.
(https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4)
I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
True, I have not received any answer yet.

Q: Does it make sense to do review the document (getting-started.xml.ru)
from Alexey N.?
If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and will be
accepted, right?

Le 07/10/2020 à 12:18, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
> Hi, Lucien.
>
> I found an email address of the person who previously sent you a
> translation and wrote to him himself.
> (https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4
> <https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4>)
> I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
> So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
> True, I have not received any answer yet.
OK, wait and see.
>
> Q: Does it make sense to do review the document
> (getting-started.xml.ru <http://getting-started.xml.ru>) from Alexey N.?
> If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and will be
> accepted, right?

It makes sense ; once you have finished, add a line in the header of the
file like that :

<!-- Reviewed by :  Pavel Vecherin -->

and send the file to the list.

It will then be committed.

Lucien

Hi, Lucien.

*About the finalization of the translation of the "getting-started.xml"
file:*
1) Applied your diff
<https://lists.apache.org/api/email.lua?attachment=true&id=rfb76b34edbae20f1bb23ec4386d184af8a73ff530d86b3bb57e04535@%3Cdocs.httpd.apache.org%3E&file=030a681f2380e25ccf285a08569401f1bd6dc184673e2061b548a803d1fb68ad>
(from
2020/05/18).
2) I made a review.
3) Added a line about myself to the file header.

I attach the result: getting-started.xml.ru.

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:00 PM Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>
wrote:

>
> Le 07/10/2020 à 12:18, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>
> Hi, Lucien.
>
> I found an email address of the person who previously sent you a
> translation and wrote to him himself.
> (https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4)
> I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
> So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
> True, I have not received any answer yet.
>
> OK, wait and see.
>
>
> Q: Does it make sense to do review the document (getting-started.xml.ru)
> from Alexey N.?
> If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and will be
> accepted, right?
>
> It makes sense ; once you have finished, add a line in the header of the
> file like that :
>
> <!-- Reviewed by : Pavel Vecherin -->
>
> and send the file to the list.
>
> It will then be committed.
>
> Lucien
>


--
Sincerely, Pavel.

Le 09/10/2020 à 01:57, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
> Hi, Lucien.
Hi Pavel
>
> _About the finalization of the translation of
> the "getting-started.xml" file:_
> 1) Applied your diff
> <https://lists.apache.org/api/email.lua?attachment=true&id=rfb76b34edbae20f1bb23ec4386d184af8a73ff530d86b3bb57e04535@%3Cdocs.httpd.apache.org%3E&file=030a681f2380e25ccf285a08569401f1bd6dc184673e2061b548a803d1fb68ad> (from
> 2020/05/18).
> 2) I made a review.
> 3) Added a line about myself to the file header.

Great

One remark : this is "2.4" version of the file ; you always must
translate "trunk" (devel) version first, then port it to current version
(currently 2.4)

In this case, the two versions of the file are probably identical, but
it's not aways the case.

So I'll commit the two versions.

Before doing that, I saw that text encoding is UTF-8, that is fine. But
I saw that the build system was configured to generate russian html
files with KOI8-R encoding.

So I'll change that in order russian html fileswill be generated with
UTF-8 encoding, like other langages

>
> I attach the result: getting-started.xml.ru
> <http://getting-started.xml.ru>.

>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:00 PM Lucien Gentis
> <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr
> <mailto:lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>> wrote:
>
>
> Le 07/10/2020 à 12:18, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>> Hi, Lucien.
>>
>> I found an email address of the person who previously sent you a
>> translation and wrote to him himself.
>> (https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4
>> <https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4>)
>> I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
>> So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
>> True, I have not received any answer yet.
> OK, wait and see.
>>
>> Q: Does it make sense to do review the document
>> (getting-started.xml.ru <http://getting-started.xml.ru>) from
>> Alexey N.?
>> If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and
>> will be accepted, right?
>
> It makes sense ; once you have finished, add a line in the header
> of the file like that :
>
> <!-- Reviewed by :  Pavel Vecherin -->
>
> and send the file to the list.
>
> It will then be committed.
>
> Lucien
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely, Pavel.

Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch
only for now).

I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.

Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer anymore.

So, if you plan to go on with russian translation, you'll have to find a
reviewer ; it's better if the person knows about Apache httpd, but it's
not mandatory.

If you don't find anyone, maybe you can ask in users mailing list ?

Le 09/10/2020 à 14:27, Lucien Gentis a écrit :
>
>
> Le 09/10/2020 à 01:57, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>> Hi, Lucien.
> Hi Pavel
>>
>> _About the finalization of the translation of
>> the "getting-started.xml" file:_
>> 1) Applied your diff
>> <https://lists.apache.org/api/email.lua?attachment=true&id=rfb76b34edbae20f1bb23ec4386d184af8a73ff530d86b3bb57e04535@%3Cdocs.httpd.apache.org%3E&file=030a681f2380e25ccf285a08569401f1bd6dc184673e2061b548a803d1fb68ad> (from
>> 2020/05/18).
>> 2) I made a review.
>> 3) Added a line about myself to the file header.
>
> Great
>
> One remark : this is "2.4" version of the file ; you always must
> translate "trunk" (devel) version first, then port it to current
> version (currently 2.4)
>
> In this case, the two versions of the file are probably identical, but
> it's not aways the case.
>
> So I'll commit the two versions.
>
> Before doing that, I saw that text encoding is UTF-8, that is fine.
> But I saw that the build system was configured to generate russian
> html files with KOI8-R encoding.
>
> So I'll change that in order russian html fileswill be generated with
> UTF-8 encoding, like other langages
>
>>
>> I attach the result: getting-started.xml.ru
>> <http://getting-started.xml.ru>.
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:00 PM Lucien Gentis
>> <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr
>> <mailto:lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le 07/10/2020 à 12:18, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>>> Hi, Lucien.
>>>
>>> I found an email address of the person who previously sent you a
>>> translation and wrote to him himself.
>>> (https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4
>>> <https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4>)
>>> I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
>>> So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
>>> True, I have not received any answer yet.
>> OK, wait and see.
>>>
>>> Q: Does it make sense to do review the document
>>> (getting-started.xml.ru <http://getting-started.xml.ru>) from
>>> Alexey N.?
>>> If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and
>>> will be accepted, right?
>>
>> It makes sense ; once you have finished, add a line in the header
>> of the file like that :
>>
>> <!-- Reviewed by :  Pavel Vecherin -->
>>
>> and send the file to the list.
>>
>> It will then be committed.
>>
>> Lucien
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely, Pavel.

Hi, Lucien.

> One remark : this is "2.4" version of the file ; you always must
translate "trunk" (devel) version first, then port it to current version
(currently 2.4)
> In this case, the two versions of the file are probably identical, but
it's not aways the case.
I got it. I will keep that in mind for future contributions.

> So I'll change that in order russian html fileswill be generated with
UTF-8 encoding, like other langages
Thank you, I think this is the correct and relevant approach.

> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch
only for now).
Yeah, already checked, it seems everything is in place. Cool!

> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
Thank you in advance.

> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer
anymore.
Yes, I didn't get an answer either.
I also sent him a message that his efforts were not in vain. :)

> So, if you plan to go on with russian translation, you'll have to find a
reviewer ; it's better if the person knows about Apache httpd, but it's not
mandatory.
Yes, okay, I get it. I'll think about it.

> If you don't find anyone, maybe you can ask in users mailing list ?
Okay, I'll keep this possibility in mind. But at the moment there is no
need for this yet.

Lucien, thank you very much for your concern (fixes) and for all the
information.
You are a good person. :)

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 5:09 PM Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>
wrote:

> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch
> only for now).
>
> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
>
> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer
> anymore.
>
> So, if you plan to go on with russian translation, you'll have to find a
> reviewer ; it's better if the person knows about Apache httpd, but it's not
> mandatory.
>
> If you don't find anyone, maybe you can ask in users mailing list ?
> Le 09/10/2020 à 14:27, Lucien Gentis a écrit :
>
>
> Le 09/10/2020 à 01:57, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>
> Hi, Lucien.
>
> Hi Pavel
>
>
> *About the finalization of the translation of the "getting-started.xml"
> file:*
> 1) Applied your diff
> <https://lists.apache.org/api/email.lua?attachment=true&id=rfb76b34edbae20f1bb23ec4386d184af8a73ff530d86b3bb57e04535@%3Cdocs.httpd.apache.org%3E&file=030a681f2380e25ccf285a08569401f1bd6dc184673e2061b548a803d1fb68ad> (from
> 2020/05/18).
> 2) I made a review.
> 3) Added a line about myself to the file header.
>
> Great
>
> One remark : this is "2.4" version of the file ; you always must translate
> "trunk" (devel) version first, then port it to current version (currently
> 2.4)
>
> In this case, the two versions of the file are probably identical, but
> it's not aways the case.
>
> So I'll commit the two versions.
>
> Before doing that, I saw that text encoding is UTF-8, that is fine. But I
> saw that the build system was configured to generate russian html files
> with KOI8-R encoding.
>
> So I'll change that in order russian html fileswill be generated with
> UTF-8 encoding, like other langages
>
>
> I attach the result: getting-started.xml.ru.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:00 PM Lucien Gentis <
> lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> Le 07/10/2020 à 12:18, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>>
>> Hi, Lucien.
>>
>> I found an email address of the person who previously sent you a
>> translation and wrote to him himself.
>> (https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4)
>> I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
>> So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
>> True, I have not received any answer yet.
>>
>> OK, wait and see.
>>
>>
>> Q: Does it make sense to do review the document (getting-started.xml.ru)
>> from Alexey N.?
>> If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and will be
>> accepted, right?
>>
>> It makes sense ; once you have finished, add a line in the header of the
>> file like that :
>>
>> <!-- Reviewed by : Pavel Vecherin -->
>>
>> and send the file to the list.
>>
>> It will then be committed.
>>
>> Lucien
>>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely, Pavel.
>
>

--
Sincerely, Pavel.

> On 9 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>
> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch only for now).
>
> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.

Sounds good.
>
> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer anymore.

He may have lost interest when his contribution wasn't accepted.

I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a language where
translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed translations
with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the "not-up-to-date" warnings)
and calling for review?

In the case of ???????, they of course have a home-grown alternative that's made
rather a good name for itself!

--
Nick Kew
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Russian language "index" and "getting-started" files are on-line (trunk
and 2.4 branches).

Le 09/10/2020 à 17:09, Lucien Gentis a écrit :
>
> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk
> branch only for now).
>
> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
>
> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer
> anymore.
>
> So, if you plan to go on with russian translation, you'll have to find
> a reviewer ; it's better if the person knows about Apache httpd, but
> it's not mandatory.
>
> If you don't find anyone, maybe you can ask in users mailing list ?
>
> Le 09/10/2020 à 14:27, Lucien Gentis a écrit :
>>
>>
>> Le 09/10/2020 à 01:57, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>>> Hi, Lucien.
>> Hi Pavel
>>>
>>> _About the finalization of the translation of
>>> the "getting-started.xml" file:_
>>> 1) Applied your diff
>>> <https://lists.apache.org/api/email.lua?attachment=true&id=rfb76b34edbae20f1bb23ec4386d184af8a73ff530d86b3bb57e04535@%3Cdocs.httpd.apache.org%3E&file=030a681f2380e25ccf285a08569401f1bd6dc184673e2061b548a803d1fb68ad> (from
>>> 2020/05/18).
>>> 2) I made a review.
>>> 3) Added a line about myself to the file header.
>>
>> Great
>>
>> One remark : this is "2.4" version of the file ; you always must
>> translate "trunk" (devel) version first, then port it to current
>> version (currently 2.4)
>>
>> In this case, the two versions of the file are probably identical,
>> but it's not aways the case.
>>
>> So I'll commit the two versions.
>>
>> Before doing that, I saw that text encoding is UTF-8, that is fine.
>> But I saw that the build system was configured to generate russian
>> html files with KOI8-R encoding.
>>
>> So I'll change that in order russian html fileswill be generated with
>> UTF-8 encoding, like other langages
>>
>>>
>>> I attach the result: getting-started.xml.ru
>>> <http://getting-started.xml.ru>.
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:00 PM Lucien Gentis
>>> <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr
>>> <mailto:lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 07/10/2020 à 12:18, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>>>> Hi, Lucien.
>>>>
>>>> I found an email address of the person who previously sent you
>>>> a translation and wrote to him himself.
>>>> (https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4
>>>> <https://lists.apache.org/list.html?docs@httpd.apache.org:2020-4>)
>>>> I offered him work together under Russian documentation.
>>>> So you probably don't need to waste your time on this. :)
>>>> True, I have not received any answer yet.
>>> OK, wait and see.
>>>>
>>>> Q: Does it make sense to do review the document
>>>> (getting-started.xml.ru <http://getting-started.xml.ru>) from
>>>> Alexey N.?
>>>> If I do this, it will be considered a complete translation and
>>>> will be accepted, right?
>>>
>>> It makes sense ; once you have finished, add a line in the
>>> header of the file like that :
>>>
>>> <!-- Reviewed by :  Pavel Vecherin -->
>>>
>>> and send the file to the list.
>>>
>>> It will then be committed.
>>>
>>> Lucien
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sincerely, Pavel.

Le 10/10/2020 à 01:25, Nick Kew a écrit :
>
>> On 9 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch only for now).
>>
>> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
> Sounds good.
>> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer anymore.
> He may have lost interest when his contribution wasn't accepted.
>
> I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a language where
> translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed translations
> with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the "not-up-to-date" warnings)
> and calling for review?

Effectively, it would encourage new translators to submit their work,
but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is
told not to be necessarily accurate.

And what will happen if several readers submit different reviews ?

>
> In the case of ???????, they of course have a home-grown alternative that's made
> rather a good name for itself!
Sorry, but I don't understand the phrase.
>

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Hi, friends.

> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" files are on-line (trunk
and 2.4 branches).
Thanks again, Lucien.

Here is another small translation for the "Virtual Hosts
<http://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/vhosts/>" page.
(index.xml.ru)

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:04 PM Lucien Gentis <
lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:

>
> Le 10/10/2020 à 01:25, Nick Kew a écrit :
> >
> >> On 9 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk
> branch only for now).
> >>
> >> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
> > Sounds good.
> >> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer
> anymore.
> > He may have lost interest when his contribution wasn't accepted.
> >
> > I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a
> language where
> > translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed
> translations
> > with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the
> "not-up-to-date" warnings)
> > and calling for review?
>
> Effectively, it would encourage new translators to submit their work,
> but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is
> told not to be necessarily accurate.
>
> And what will happen if several readers submit different reviews ?
>
> >
> > In the case of ???????, they of course have a home-grown alternative
> that's made
> > rather a good name for itself!
> Sorry, but I don't understand the phrase.
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docs-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docs-help@httpd.apache.org
>
>

--
Sincerely, Pavel.

> On 13 Oct 2020, at 13:04, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Le 10/10/2020 à 01:25, Nick Kew a écrit :
>>
>>> On 9 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch only for now).
>>>
>>> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
>> Sounds good.
>>> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer anymore.
>> He may have lost interest when his contribution wasn't accepted.
>>
>> I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a language where
>> translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed translations
>> with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the "not-up-to-date" warnings)
>> and calling for review?
>
> Effectively, it would encourage new translators to submit their work, but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is told not to be necessarily accurate.

I doubt it would make much difference. But when a translator (like Alexey) turns up,
it could make him feel much more welcome and appreciated. Encourage him to
stick around and contribute more.

> but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is told not to be necessarily accurate.

Hmmm. Possibly the opposite: silence is agreement, but a lot of people are
happy to point out an error!

> And what will happen if several readers submit different reviews ?

Then we have a lively community. Job done!

>>
>> In the case of ???????, they of course have a home-grown alternative that's made
>> rather a good name for itself!
> Sorry, but I don't understand the phrase.

Er? What phrase? I merely meant that with nginx originating in their own language,
we should (if anything) particularly welcome Russian colleagues ;) !

--
Nick Kew
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I think this topic becomes confusing because too much "nested".

So In short, Nick Kew suggested to simplify the review process in these
terms :

"I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a
language where
translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed
translations
with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the
"not-up-to-date" warnings) and calling for review?"

And I answer :

I don't like this solution but things have to forward ...

However I see some problems :

--- How will people report an error they have detected in an unreviewed
translated document ? (mailing list, Q/A at the bottom of the document,...)

--- If someone says "This sentence should rather be translated so ...",
and anotherone says "I don't agree, it should rather be translated so
...", how can we decide who is right. ?

        (errors are not only typos, they can also affect the semantic)

--- At what moment can we say a translated document is considered as
reviewed, so we can delete the disclaimer ?

Le 13/10/2020 à 21:35, Nick Kew a écrit :
>> On 13 Oct 2020, at 13:04, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le 10/10/2020 à 01:25, Nick Kew a écrit :
>>>> On 9 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk branch only for now).
>>>>
>>>> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
>>> Sounds good.
>>>> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer anymore.
>>> He may have lost interest when his contribution wasn't accepted.
>>>
>>> I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a language where
>>> translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed translations
>>> with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the "not-up-to-date" warnings)
>>> and calling for review?
>> Effectively, it would encourage new translators to submit their work, but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is told not to be necessarily accurate.
> I doubt it would make much difference. But when a translator (like Alexey) turns up,
> it could make him feel much more welcome and appreciated. Encourage him to
> stick around and contribute more.
>
>> but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is told not to be necessarily accurate.
> Hmmm. Possibly the opposite: silence is agreement, but a lot of people are
> happy to point out an error!
>
>> And what will happen if several readers submit different reviews ?
> Then we have a lively community. Job done!
>
>>> In the case of ???????, they of course have a home-grown alternative that's made
>>> rather a good name for itself!
>> Sorry, but I don't understand the phrase.
> Er? What phrase? I merely meant that with nginx originating in their own language,
> we should (if anything) particularly welcome Russian colleagues ;) !
>

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 7:43 AM Lucien Gentis
<lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>
> I think this topic becomes confusing because too much "nested".
>
> So In short, Nick Kew suggested to simplify the review process in these
> terms :
>
> "I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a
> language where
> translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed
> translations
> with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the
> "not-up-to-date" warnings) and calling for review?"
>
> And I answer :
>
> I don't like this solution but things have to forward ...
>
> However I see some problems :
>
> --- How will people report an error they have detected in an unreviewed
> translated document ? (mailing list, Q/A at the bottom of the document,...)

If we had a disclaimer we could include this info. I suggest bugzilla
is simplest. But I think if it is something more than cosmetic an
interested user has lots of options even without explicit guidance.

>
> --- If someone says "This sentence should rather be translated so ...",
> and anotherone says "I don't agree, it should rather be translated so
> ...", how can we decide who is right. ?
>
> (errors are not only typos, they can also affect the semantic)

To me it is unlikely anyone shows up to complain much less that the
origina/any other author is around to read the complaint.
Even if this does happen they have to actually disagree for it to be a problem.

If the person complaining is the only one around w/ that language
skill, we can point them at the translation process.

> --- At what moment can we say a translated document is considered as
> reviewed, so we can delete the disclaimer ?

If someone did show up with minor updates we could consider it
effectively reviewed? Or we could solicit such a review in the
disclaimer.

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@Lucien
> I can't commit your file since it has been reviewed.
I think you mean:
> ... has not been reviewed.
Ok, yes I understand the rules.

> ... we are discussing about a solution to simplify the review process ...
Yes. This is very interesting. :)

@doc
One thought: why not keep in the repository translations that require
review by filename,
for example "name-based.xml.ru.need_review".
And some script (or page) that could collect such files (by lang).
This could direct a new contributor in the right way.
It seems to me that this can be useful (of course, if there is no such
thing yet, I may have missed something).

@Nick
> ... we should (if anything) particularly welcome Russian colleagues ;) !
If the opportunity presents itself, I will say hello to Igor from Nick. :))

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:50 PM Lucien Gentis <
lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:

> Hi Pavel,
>
> I can't commit your file since it has been reviewed.
>
> But as you can see in docs mailing list, we are discussing about a
> solution to simplify the review process ; so things will perhaps go further.
>
> Lucien
> Le 13/10/2020 à 21:23, Pavel Vecherin a écrit :
>
> Hi, friends.
>
> > Russian language "index" and "getting-started" files are on-line (trunk
> and 2.4 branches).
> Thanks again, Lucien.
>
> Here is another small translation for the "Virtual Hosts
> <http://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/vhosts/>" page.
> (index.xml.ru)
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:04 PM Lucien Gentis <
> lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> Le 10/10/2020 à 01:25, Nick Kew a écrit :
>> >
>> >> On 9 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Russian language "index" and "getting-started" are on-line (trunk
>> branch only for now).
>> >>
>> >> I'll port them to 2.4 branch ... next week.
>> > Sounds good.
>> >> Pavel, I'm afraid that for whatever reason Alexey N. doesn't answer
>> anymore.
>> > He may have lost interest when his contribution wasn't accepted.
>> >
>> > I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a
>> language where
>> > translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed
>> translations
>> > with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the
>> "not-up-to-date" warnings)
>> > and calling for review?
>>
>> Effectively, it would encourage new translators to submit their work,
>> but I'm afraid it could discourage the readers to study a text which is
>> told not to be necessarily accurate.
>>
>> And what will happen if several readers submit different reviews ?
>>
>> >
>> > In the case of ???????, they of course have a home-grown alternative
>> that's made
>> > rather a good name for itself!
>> Sorry, but I don't understand the phrase.
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docs-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: docs-help@httpd.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sincerely, Pavel.
>
>

--
Sincerely, Pavel.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:39:03 +0200
Pavel Vecherin <vecherins@gmail.com> wrote:

> @doc
> One thought: why not keep in the repository translations that require
> review by filename,
> for example "name-based.xml.ru.need_review".

+1 to some such approach. Needs thought on implementation.

> And some script (or page) that could collect such files (by lang).
> This could direct a new contributor in the right way.
> It seems to me that this can be useful (of course, if there is no such
> thing yet, I may have missed something).
>
> @Nick
> > ... we should (if anything) particularly welcome Russian
> > colleagues ;) !
> If the opportunity presents itself, I will say hello to Igor from
> Nick. :))

:)

Some years back I had occasion to engage with the nginx community.
It was a positive experience.

<quote cite="https://bahumbug.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/tengine/">
How much of a barrier is language? I’ve written about that before, and
now it’s my turn to find myself the wrong side of a language barrier.
Actually that applies to nginx too: the Russian-born web server has a core community whose language I don’t speak. Developing the nginx-ironbee module gave me an opportunity to test a barrier from the outside, and I’m happy to report I got some helpful responses and productive technical discussion on nginx’s English-language developer list. A welcoming community and no language barrier to what I was doing.
</quote>

--
Nick Kew

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Le 14/10/2020 à 13:56, Eric Covener a écrit :
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 7:43 AM Lucien Gentis
> <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>> I think this topic becomes confusing because too much "nested".
>>
>> So In short, Nick Kew suggested to simplify the review process in these
>> terms :
>>
>> "I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a
>> language where
>> translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed
>> translations
>> with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the
>> "not-up-to-date" warnings) and calling for review?"
>>
>> And I answer :
>>
>> I don't like this solution but things have to forward ...
>>
>> However I see some problems :
>>
>> --- How will people report an error they have detected in an unreviewed
>> translated document ? (mailing list, Q/A at the bottom of the document,...)
> If we had a disclaimer we could include this info. I suggest bugzilla
> is simplest.
Simplest but not simple ; create an account, login, fill a bug, perhaps
only for a typo ...
> But I think if it is something more than cosmetic an
> interested user has lots of options even without explicit guidance.
examples of theses options ?
>
>> --- If someone says "This sentence should rather be translated so ...",
>> and anotherone says "I don't agree, it should rather be translated so
>> ...", how can we decide who is right. ?
>>
>> (errors are not only typos, they can also affect the semantic)
> To me it is unlikely anyone shows up to complain much less that the
> origina/any other author is around to read the complaint.
> Even if this does happen they have to actually disagree for it to be a problem.
That's what I said, if they disagree, how can we decide ?
>
> If the person complaining is the only one around w/ that language
> skill, we can point them at the translation process.
>
>> --- At what moment can we say a translated document is considered as
>> reviewed, so we can delete the disclaimer ?
> If someone did show up with minor updates we could consider it
> effectively reviewed? Or we could solicit such a review in the
> disclaimer.
Effectively, if someone says he/she has reviewed the file, that's Ok
>
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Le 14/10/2020 à 17:09, Nick Kew a écrit :
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:39:03 +0200
> Pavel Vecherin <vecherins@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> @doc
>> One thought: why not keep in the repository translations that require
>> review by filename,
>> for example "name-based.xml.ru.need_review".
> +1 to some such approach. Needs thought on implementation.

Why not, in the style of Translation status
(http://home.apache.org/~takashi/translation-status/index.html#2.4)

with a link on top of the doc that points to that list and suggesting to
contribute

>
>> And some script (or page) that could collect such files (by lang).
>> This could direct a new contributor in the right way.
>> It seems to me that this can be useful (of course, if there is no such
>> thing yet, I may have missed something).
>>
>> @Nick
>>> ... we should (if anything) particularly welcome Russian
>>> colleagues ;) !
>> If the opportunity presents itself, I will say hello to Igor from
>> Nick. :))
> :)
>
> Some years back I had occasion to engage with the nginx community.
> It was a positive experience.
>
> <quote cite="https://bahumbug.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/tengine/">
> How much of a barrier is language? I’ve written about that before, and
> now it’s my turn to find myself the wrong side of a language barrier.
> Actually that applies to nginx too: the Russian-born web server has a core community whose language I don’t speak. Developing the nginx-ironbee module gave me an opportunity to test a barrier from the outside, and I’m happy to report I got some helpful responses and productive technical discussion on nginx’s English-language developer list. A welcoming community and no language barrier to what I was doing.
> </quote>
>

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There is also a radical but simple solution :

1. Saying that the review of translated document by another speaker of
same language is highly recommended, but not mandatory.

2. Inserting on the top of each translated html document a "flashy" link
(a WARNING) that displays a message indicating that "The translation
process is subject to errors, and in case of doubt, please refer to
original english document".

Le 14/10/2020 à 18:08, Lucien Gentis a écrit :
>
> Le 14/10/2020 à 17:09, Nick Kew a écrit :
>> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:39:03 +0200
>> Pavel Vecherin <vecherins@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> @doc
>>> One thought: why not keep in the repository translations that require
>>> review by filename,
>>> for example "name-based.xml.ru.need_review".
>> +1 to some such approach.  Needs thought on implementation.
>
> Why not, in the style of Translation status
> (http://home.apache.org/~takashi/translation-status/index.html#2.4)
>
> with a link on top of the doc that points to that list and suggesting
> to contribute
>
>>
>>> And some script (or page) that could collect such files (by lang).
>>> This could direct a new contributor in the right way.
>>> It seems to me that this can be useful (of course, if there is no such
>>> thing yet, I may have missed something).
>>>
>>> @Nick
>>>> ... we should (if anything) particularly welcome Russian
>>>> colleagues ;) !
>>> If the opportunity presents itself, I will say hello to Igor from
>>> Nick. :))
>> :)
>>
>> Some years back I had occasion to engage with the nginx community.
>> It was a positive experience.
>>
>> <quote cite="https://bahumbug.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/tengine/">
>> How much of a barrier is language?  I’ve written about that before, and
>> now it’s my turn to find myself the wrong side of a language barrier.
>> Actually that applies to nginx too: the Russian-born web server has a
>> core community whose language I don’t speak.  Developing the 
>> nginx-ironbee module gave me an opportunity to test a barrier from
>> the outside, and I’m happy to report I got some helpful responses and
>> productive technical discussion on nginx’s English-language developer
>> list.  A welcoming community and no language barrier to what I was
>> doing.
>> </quote>
>>
>
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> On 19 Oct 2020, at 12:03, Lucien Gentis <lucien.gentis@univ-lorraine.fr> wrote:
>
> There is also a radical but simple solution :
>
> 1. Saying that the review of translated document by another speaker of same language is highly recommended, but not mandatory.
>
> 2. Inserting on the top of each translated html document a "flashy" link (a WARNING) that displays a message indicating that "The translation process is subject to errors, and in case of doubt, please refer to original english document".

Of course, original English documents may contain errors, too
(and I should know - I wrote a few and updated others :)

I think we already solicit corrections, clarifications, and the like?

I wouldn't want to go too far in this: it could become open invitation
to abuse in a language none of us can read. Let there be a hurdle,
but offer flexibility where there's a genuine problem meeting it.

Or maybe we could use machine translation to flag up if someone
is trying to use our site to coordinate arms sales to drugs gangs?
Though come to that, if Organised Crime had that idea, it would
surely be organised enough to offer a second reviewer itself!

--
Nick Kew
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On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 01:03:42PM +0200, Lucien Gentis wrote:
> There is also a radical but simple solution :
>
> 1. Saying that the review of translated document by another speaker
> of same language is highly recommended, but not mandatory.
>
> 2. Inserting on the top of each translated html document a "flashy"
> link (a WARNING) that displays a message indicating that "The
> translation process is subject to errors, and in case of doubt,
> please refer to original english document".
>
If going with either of those two, we should probably get someone to run
the pages through google translate as a minimal validation.

vh

Mads Toftum
--
http://flickr.com/photos/q42/

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Le 19/10/2020 à 15:25, Mads Toftum a écrit :
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 01:03:42PM +0200, Lucien Gentis wrote:
>> There is also a radical but simple solution :
>>
>> 1. Saying that the review of translated document by another speaker
>> of same language is highly recommended, but not mandatory.
>>
>> 2. Inserting on the top of each translated html document a "flashy"
>> link (a WARNING) that displays a message indicating that "The
>> translation process is subject to errors, and in case of doubt,
>> please refer to original english document".
>>
> If going with either of those two, we should probably get someone to run
> the pages through google translate as a minimal validation.
>
> vh
>
> Mads Toftum

So how about Nick's solution which I recall below :


"I wonder if the review process might be a bit over-bureaucratic for a
language where

translators are thin on the ground? Perhaps we could accept unreviewed
translations

with a disclaimer advising readers of the fact (like the
"not-up-to-date" warnings)

and calling for review?"


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